The Rocks You Need to Know
[00:00:00]
Eh. How you doing, Jesse? Ha ha
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Dr.
Chris Bolhuis: That's so funny. Don't say that. That is so funny, isn't it?
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah. So the backstory here, is that
Chris Bolhuis: ha
Dr. Jesse Reimink: some of you have elevated Chris. I would say elevated. I don't know if that's maybe demoted or elevated [00:00:30] Chris to PhD level.
Chris Bolhuis: Eh.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: And we've got, we've got quite a kick out of that. We've got a couple, uh, listener emails have said, Oh, Dr. Reimink and Dr. Bolhuis. And that always gives us, like to laugh at that, Chris.
How do you feel about it?
Chris Bolhuis: well, I laugh my butt off at it. I think it makes you cringe though, actually. I think, you know, me being on the same level as the all great Dr. Jesse Reimink, um,
Dr. Jesse Reimink: I know. Well, you know,
like you said before, you might've earned it, you know, this, this [00:01:00] exercise, it might earn you a PhD just doing all this podcast, putting up with me, getting in the weeds,
Chris Bolhuis: an honorary PhD. Hey, what, what is an honorary PhD? Can you tell me about that? Because there was, I was at Bella's graduation they gave out like two or three honorary PhDs to like prominent people around the Marquette area. What does that mean?
Dr. Jesse Reimink: I don't really know. I'm making this up a little bit. I don't think it has any official designation. I mean, you do get it, you did get a PhD, but people accrue these. Like it's like [00:01:30] everything, once you're successful, you get more successful by getting all these awards and stuff, right?
So, um, I think it goes to famous alumni or highly successful alumni, or like, I don't know, the market people where they're like business people in the area or something like that.
Chris Bolhuis: was along that line. Yeah. Yeah. Just people that have really contributed a lot to the betterment of the area and so on. And
Dr. Jesse Reimink: yeah, yeah, I think that's right. I mean, I think some universities probably use it, um, to drive donations, maybe?
So if you, if you are potentially gonna donate a bunch, then you get an honorary [00:02:00] PhD, but I, it's not, I think it's usually more for, like, people who do a bunch of service, or contribute a lot, so.
Chris Bolhuis: So if I ever got an honorary PhD, would you have to call me doctor then?
Like,
Dr. Jesse Reimink: that at all costs.
Chris Bolhuis: this might be something I have to pursue, Jesse.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah, just for the sake of it.
Chris Bolhuis: Yes. Just to make you say it. Oh, that'd be so good.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: good, that would be fun. Then, then we could be the doctors, Bolhuis and Reimink, that'd be good.
Chris Bolhuis: Yes.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah, [00:02:30] absolutely.
Chris Bolhuis: Okay. Well, that's food for thought. That's good stuff.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: it is food for thought. I kind of like that. Uh, today, Chris, well, you have a doctorate in this topic and what we're talking about here, which, let me just frame it because this is a listener question. This comes from Mike and Mike, uh, really is asking about field trips. How do you think about starting a field trip? And then how do you go about planning a field trip? And he's focused mostly on students, like taking students out into the field to teach them In our case, geology.
that's a big [00:03:00] topic, something you and I have both done a lot of, there's so many aspects to it, it's, it's a little hard to, I don't know, for me to narrow it down in my head, to, to provide guidance, Chris? I don't know. What do you think?
Chris Bolhuis: I think this is a difficult topic because, I think every situation Mike is an educator as well. Correct. He's taken people out in the field in Hawaii, I think. Right. Is that, is that right? Right. Um, and so I think every situation is different. Like, what are you allowed to do? I think is, the number one thing.
I mean, what [00:03:30] is your administration going to let you do? You know, because if you propose a, you know, if you come up with this idea, Hey, I want to take students out and I want to do this and this and this. And if your administration looks at you, like you have a horn growing out of your head and there you want to do what, you
Dr. Jesse Reimink: right. Well, that's where my mind like sort of immediately went in. It's in part because this has changed a lot. I'd imagine, I mean, it's changed a lot in my career and Chris, it must have changed so much over the course of your career, just like how [00:04:00] comfortable, Administrators or entities are with risk.
I just think, you know, at Penn State where it's incredibly risk averse environment. So taking students out into the field is actually a big beer. It's a big hurdle, almost unmanageable. I mean, we still
Chris Bolhuis: Like, what do you mean? Is it the paperwork on the front end? What do you mean that it's, there's a lot of work to do?
Dr. Jesse Reimink: yeah, it's paperwork. it's legal documentation. It's and it makes it prohibitive in many ways to do [00:04:30] It's really risk aversion. Um, you know, you have to get all the documentation in order and, and, and, bad things have happened.
Like the field camp that you went on when you were an undergrad, Chris, was like a totally different experience than the field camp. in many ways, field camp has been improved. Field work has been improved. There's a big improvement in safety. I think it's kind of a pendulum that goes back and forth.
We might be a little too risk averse in some, in some places, in some institutes. like Chris, how have, I mean, I'm guessing this has changed a lot for you over the [00:05:00] course of your career in regards to, you know, you've designed field trips and led them and continue to do them.
would you be able to do that now? I mean, not you, but a new, a new teacher starting out, or, and how would you start doing that? Like, you know what I mean? That's kind of what I'm getting at is, things were probably different when I was in high school in this regard. you
Chris Bolhuis: Yeah. I think, I think so, but I, but I personally haven't felt that. so that's an interesting thought. Like would a, would a new teacher [00:05:30] get the same benefit?
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah, let me interrupt on that note, because you're, you know, you're Chris Bolhuis, you, you're saying the administration allows you to do things because you've done it successfully for a long time, right? And, and that's deserved, right?
Like, you've earned that right a little bit, but for a new teacher, a sort of an unknown entity, or a young version of Chris Bolhuis.
Chris Bolhuis: yeah, I don't know What the response would be if a new teacher wanted to do what I do. I don't honestly know. I I'll say this, that the one thing that I have done a lot of, and I, I [00:06:00] wholeheartedly believe in it is taking my bosses with us whenever possible.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Oh, that's a great one. Yeah.
Chris Bolhuis: I think I've, I'm on my fifth superintendent now, and that's the head honcho of the whole school district, and I've taken two of my bosses, the head honcho, I've taken them out with us for a period of time on my summer field course or my summer field trip.
And, and I've taken principals. Those are my immediate bosses. I've taken those on, either the big trip out west, during the summer [00:06:30] or even, um, on smaller field trips, like going up to the upper peninsula in Michigan on a three or four day excursion. Like I took you on and I've taken people like that are my superiors.
I've taken them with, I think that's, Like that's huge because they get a flavor Yeah, because I want them to understand what we do. I want them to understand and see the risk, one of the things that that we do in Black Hills for instance is we do that sunrise hike so we get up on top of this place called little devil's [00:07:00] tower in the black Hills and it's, it's four o'clock in the morning.
It's amazing. But you have to though, be very conscious about staying away from the edge and making sure that everybody understands that. And, and then when the sun comes up and you can finally see out and you're literally on top of the world, I took my superintendent up with a group of students up to that.
And when the son came up and he looked around, I think he was a little surprised. He's like, Oh my gosh, this is for real. but it was, it was a good thing. It wasn't a bad thing. but I want them to [00:07:30] understand the risk. Absolutely.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: They also get exposure to like how beneficial this experience with the risks involved are, is to students, right? Like that's, uh, so this is a boon for you to bring decision makers along.
Chris Bolhuis: I think so. Uh, yeah, I think it is. hard to get them to go because they have a hard time getting that kind of time off. I always try to convince them by saying, you're, you're really not getting time off. You're working. I mean, this is a part of your work. It's a part of your job to understand this program and the benefits that [00:08:00] you can get.
I mean, there's always a, there's a, always this risk benefit. and you know, this, you think about this all the time when you take students out in the field too, there's a risk benefit that you're always weighing
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think most of the time, you know, the risks are worth it, right? I mean, just because of the experience and getting out there. So, but that's something people who are planning something, how would you advise a young teacher in a different school district who wanted to do even just like a day field trip or something [00:08:30] smaller, not summer science, but like a weekend or something like you've done, how would you advise them to get that started?
Or like, what's the first step? Is the first step to go talk to the superintendent and say, Hey, look, or,
Chris Bolhuis: no, I don't think so. I think the first step is to. Think about everything first. Like the first step is where do you want to go? Where do you want to take these students? Why do you want to take them there? what is the benefit of them being exposed to this out in the field?
And then you really have to [00:09:00] know, you have to do a lot of front end planning. with the understanding that you might get told no, but I think that you have to go there with, you can answer any question. How long is it going to take to get there? What are you going to do when you get there? What's the benefit? What are the risks involved here? And I think being upfront about that.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: That's a really important one, Chris. And, you know, you're talking about, bringing administrators along. When I was a postdoc at Carnegie, I was planning, this is a different thing. This isn't like educational field work, but this was field work, work, [00:09:30] work, research work, and I was planning this big excursion up into the Northwest territories and up into Nunavut.
We're going to be gone for a month. multiple different locations coordinating float plane flights with supplies and all this stuff. And then we got, got along on it. And my, my boss, who was the director of the department that I was in at Carning Institute was like, Oh, um, so we've got a new president of the Carning Institute and, uh, he wants to come along on this field trip.
And also he's going to bring a trustee along. And so I was [00:10:00] like, okay. Wait, they're coming. Do I have a say in this? And he's like, well, it's pretty hard to say no when the president of the institute wants to come along and a major donor wants to come along. Right. So they came along and it was actually great.
I mean, it ended up being great, but it was a massive headache, right? Like this was, you know, coordinating logistics, making sure they were gonna have a good experience with it. I mean, it adds another level to it, and you just have to be. It's incredibly coordinated and planned and up front about the risks you had to be like, Hey, [00:10:30] here's the downsides.
Here's the upsides. Here's what the experience is going to look like and feel like, and then convey that to them people then know that you have experience and you can, you can pull this off actually, um, and have, you know, that confidence that you can do it because it is a little outside the box, these types of trips, uh, or they can be in certain places, right?
So think that's wise advice to sort of know everything and have it really planned out in advance before you propose it.
Chris Bolhuis: Yeah, and also a risk because you do run the risk of putting all of this [00:11:00] time and all of this thought and energy into it. And then, you know, with the potential of being told, sorry, that's not going to happen. I don't personally feel that way with me. I, when I go to my superiors now, I'm at the point where I feel like if I ask for something, I'm going to get it.
They're going to say, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You know, for instance, for instance, I'm planning a trip right now for April 8th, the full eclipse, which is going to go through Indiana and Ohio, which is South of us. So it's like a five hour bus drive. so I [00:11:30] went to my bosses and said, I want to take my astronomy students, which is about, You know, 55 kids.
Yeah. I mean, this is a once in potentially a once in a lifetime opportunity for them. I want to take them to go see it the day after spring break. So there, kids are all going to be off on spring break. We come back Monday, six o'clock in the morning, two hours before the normal school day starts.
We're going to leave I'm taking actually a hundred students down there to see this. Because I said, well, wait a minute. My geology students would like to see this [00:12:00] too. Can I do that? And, and my boss's response was, yeah, only if I can go. And so I'm taking him too. Yeah.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah.
Chris Bolhuis: And so his whole family is going to go with us on this trip.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: No, I mean, that's a good lesson is, get other people on board. Uh, you know, if they get something out of it too, they're the decision maker and, you know, they get to go along. That's great. Right. that's really cool. That's, uh, that, that'll be a great, uh, experience for sure. I guess back to the sort of new teacher or somebody who hasn't done this before trying to [00:12:30] do it.
My advice might be to start small don't, don't go in and say, I want to start summer science, a three week camping trip out west, right? Don't do that, right? Do a day trip, and then that goes well, and students love it, and then do, you know, the next year, uh, like an overnight or a weekend or something, right?
And kind of scale up and build that confidence, I think, that you can pull it off, and then confidence for yourself as well, and you know how to manage it, you learn from mistakes, I think that's a really, um, A good way to start out, I suppose, [00:13:00] in some way.
Chris Bolhuis: absolutely. I agree. when you think about doing an overnight thing, now you're talking about, it's a whole different animal because you have to, The logistics of what are you going to eat? cost is always something that I think a lot about. I want to keep, keep that down to a minimum. And I would, I don't ever want to have cost be a factor in somebody not wanting to attend.
Like I can't afford that. I don't want to do that. So I'm really upfront about that too, because I think that there's always a way to find a way around that. There are [00:13:30] people that, that are so generous with, with that kind of thing that they would, pay for somebody else to go. And so I, I just say right up front, do not let finances be a reason why you don't want to do something like this.
We'll figure that out later, not on the front end. but yeah, overnight things, my overnight trips are always intense and so that's, a
Dr. Jesse Reimink: That, that's, uh, let me, let me jump in. In tents, sleeping in a tent, not in tents. They are in tents too, but in tents, but yes, things like what happens if it snows on us in the tents? And [00:14:00] we've got students who might have never camped before, probably a lot of them have never camped before, and are not experienced with the outdoors in any way, shape, or form.
So just like what happens if stuff goes awry, gotta have exit strategies.
Chris Bolhuis: Well, yeah, or I had this happen actually, and it was your sister's year that I took them up to the, up, we got six inches of snow and it was in May. You know, totally. we knew it was gonna be kind of cold, but this was a shock, you know, we didn't [00:14:30] expect that. And, I think also when you wanna take students out in the field, it is so important to put them in the, proper mindset.
and what I mean by that is positivity is a must because as a, as an educator, the last thing you want to do is take a group of students out in the field that don't really want to be there. So I'm really upfront about that. I hit that really hard. Jesse actually is, is look, if you don't want to go because you don't think that you want to sleep [00:15:00] in a tent or, or you don't want to be cold or potentially wet, if it rains out, whatever the situation is, then please say no.
there is no pressure here at all. I only want to take a group of kids out there that want to be out there and, experience whatever nature throws at us. And so your sister's year, what they were amazing. I actually grouped them together after two days and we were just, we were out in the field all day doing like an all day lab where we went from place [00:15:30] to place to place and did geology in the field.
And I said, listen. Do you want, do you all want to go home? I'll take you home tomorrow. We'll end this early if, because this is, this is like not normal. And they looked at me and like, Mr. Bolhuis, no, we're having a great time. And so we didn't go home early. I took them to a movie in Marquette I've never done that before, but it was just, it was raining at this point.
It was miserable. We need to just get warm and dry. So we [00:16:00] went to a movie, you know, and
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Well, yeah, the, just how to manage it. I mean, I, I think two points to that. Yeah. Setting expectations is massive. When we run our field camp for Penn State undergrads, you know, it's a different level of student, right? These are more adults, right?
but we go out to the Western United States and, uh, many of these students, some of them have never been Pennsylvaniaor never been west of Mississippi and so can you c n tap into that excitement the newne s of it the adventure of it and so even en when we're [00:16:30] camping for this week and there's no running water we're in this national forest campground and many students have never experie nced that before where if you want to kee You got to jump in the glacial stream.
That's right there, right? Like that, that's it. So you have to tap into that sense of adventure and like, how cool is this? We're standing in this mountains, like, this is amazing. So yeah, you can put up with some of the stuff that's a little bit less comfortable than we're used to because it's so amazing.
So tapping into that, I think is, a really important thing. And I remember, I think it [00:17:00] was when I went along on the summer science trip that when my dad led it, there was a couple of times when we'd, you know, rock up at the camp and it's late and it's raining and everybody just wants to sleep.
And they'd be like, okay, we're not setting up tents tonight. You can either sleep in the bus, you can sleep under the bus. And we would like sleep under the bus. Right. And everybody'd lay out their sleeping bag and it's raining and it was great. I mean, so fun as a kid and so much of a bonding experience for the students as well.
Right. I mean, yeah, you're not comfortable, but it's [00:17:30] fine, You just know how to, to get through it, but you tap into that sense of adventure again.
Chris Bolhuis: That's really interesting to hear you say that because you do deal with kids that are, well, you don't deal with kids. You're dealing with adults that are, you know, advanced in their education and you're still doing those same kinds of things that I do. That psychological aspect of it is huge.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Chris, and we've talked about, uh, you know, running a science trip for adults or something like that, right? It'd be this, I think it'd be the same thing. Like humans are humans, right? You, you need to tap into that. So there's nothing worse than a group of [00:18:00] people who are cranky together about something.
And you just gotta, you have such a great ability as a group to get through adversity or discomfort. If you're positive as a group, that group mindset kind of lifts everybody up. So
Chris Bolhuis: Absolutely. Kind of leaning into the thing, leaning into doing something that most normal people would not do. And, and, and I think a lot of people, it's been my experience that they just latch onto that and they're ready to go and they're happy about it.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: I think so. I think there's nothing
Chris Bolhuis: But I [00:18:30] think, To again, to drive home that point, that just being on the front end before you even think about leaving and you talk about the trip with your potential students and all right, positivity is a must.
Do we really want to do this? Let me paint a picture for you, it might be really cold and you try to paint the most miserable experience. Is this really what you want to do?
Dr. Jesse Reimink: yeah, I, I think that's the biggest thing, the outset. But I also think, let's talk about some of the more detailed parts. So you, you described, you know, you want to go in, if you're proposing to do this, or if you're [00:19:00] designing this from scratch, you got to think through the details and what are you going to do?
are you going to go? Why are you going to go there? Let's talk about that a little bit. And more like, how do you design an effective geological learning exercise? guys. In a region, what do you pick to do? Cause it's not just walking around looking at rocks randomly. Right. so how do you think about this?
And, you know, I've got some thoughts on it too, but how, how do you, for the high school age students, how do you pick what to do
Chris Bolhuis: I think for me I would be my state of [00:19:30] Nerves would be so much higher if I wasn't comfortable with where I'm taking the kids and in terms of my own experience What I'm saying is I have to know the area pretty well before I would ever think about taking a student there Does that make sense? Like, I need to know, can I get in and out of there, right?
can I park my bus there or whatever vehicle, whatever transportation you have? Can you get there? Is it accessible?
Dr. Jesse Reimink: can I ask a quick question about that, Chris? Does that mean that you only go places you're comfortable with? Or does that mean you pick a place and you go do a [00:20:00] prospecting trip first?
Chris Bolhuis: both, both. Both. Yes. Absolutely. Like if I want to take a group of students to the, you know, Smoky Mountains, I'm, I'm okay. I would do that in a heartbeat because I've been there so many times and I, I, I can plan those aspects out of it. The logistics of, accessibility is huge.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: totally.
Chris Bolhuis: In terms of, and also safety.
If I'm going to take a group to an outcrop, then safety is my number one concern. is this really good [00:20:30] example of geology in the field safe to, to look at without having kids get, you know, hit by a car or something like that,
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah, you don't, you don't pick the, you don't pick the outcrop stop that's on an expressway on the corner with semi trucks hauling past in a narrow shoulder, right? Like you, You can't do that, or you gotta be careful of the footing, and wildlife, and just, the logistics of it are certainly a major component.
How do you think about the geology of it? so [00:21:00] you think, okay, there's five sites that logistically I could look at, or get into, like, how do you decide, I mean, what's your sort of pedagogical approach?
Chris Bolhuis: this is the most fun aspect of planning a trip. It, it is, it is a hundred percent. And, and this does, this also applies to anybody that is, wants to go to a place and learn more about the geology without taking students there. This is like for everybody in terms of planning a trip to get the most out of it.
If you're going to a place of geologic interest. This [00:21:30] is the fun part, is diving into. The geology of it. I don't know, Jesse, I use, many different diverse resources as I can possibly get my hands on. And I look at these things with that in mind, what does it look like?
You know, geologically, let's say I want to, I'm going to do a day on structural geology and folding and faulting and things like that. Right. Or, or relative dating in terms of unconformities and, that kind of thing, you have to find the best outcrops to show [00:22:00] that, and that takes just, it's just digging, what are your thoughts on that?
Dr. Jesse Reimink: I agree completely. I think that, one point is the digging. There is a lot, there's a lot of resources that, you need to dig for that are incredibly valuable, whether they're, I mean, I was just looking at, the old archives of the Pennsylvania, uh, It's not even the geological survey.
It's like the, annual meeting of interested geologists of Southern Pennsylvania or something. And they have 150 years of field trip guides, 150 years of field trip. They've visited [00:22:30] almost every interesting outcrop in like the South central part of Pennsylvania over that time. And they've got guidebooks for them.
Here's the stop location. Here's where you go. Here's where you park. that's hard to find. Like you gotta, you gotta spend some time digging in the internet to get that stuff. But when you do, it's unbelievably useful.
Chris Bolhuis: Yeah, they are hard to find, but you're right. Those are the things They are pure gold. Why are they so hard to find? I, it shouldn't
Dr. Jesse Reimink: I think Chris, because they're buried, buried, quote unquote buried in these like geological associations [00:23:00] or mineralogical communities, right? you know, the mineralogical club of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, which has some crappy website because nobody cares about the website. And you got to go to the meetings to meet the people.
Like it's a, it's a community of people who have passed on legacy knowledge and not, not a lot of it's online. I don't think so. You know, go to those meetings, like, especially the mineralogical clubs, if you go to those meetings, people there will know who's got field guides to what areas, and, you know, they'll have paper copies, and they'll say, here you go, [00:23:30] scan them, and you can have a copy or whatever, like, that's gold dust, those
Chris Bolhuis: And then coming across those kinds of things roadside geology books are, those are priceless too. So roadside geology, field guides, where people have already led trips and taken people to these places and then just curating all that information,
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Let me, let me interrupt. Sorry, Chris, I don't mean to interrupt, but I want to, give you a thesis and hear what you think about it. So my thesis, when I'm thinking about designing an exercise, whether it's a day or a week or whatever for students, Here's the [00:24:00] thesis. The thesis is you don't want to have an exercise that is just regurgitating what they've seen in a textbook.
So you don't want to show them the textbook outcrop of an unconformity or cross cutting relationships and they just say, okay, yeah, that's, that's that. Okay, that makes sense. I've seen it in the field. and conversely, you don't want to throw them in too deep. You don't want them to be lost throughout the whole exercise.
But you want something that kind of bridges, um, The boundary there where they are lost for a little while, if it's a half day exercise, you want them to be lost for about an hour and a half, and then they figure it out. [00:24:30] If it's three day mapping project, you want to be lost for a day and a half. And then they, the light bulb clicks on at some point in that three day exercise.
So it has to be confusing, but not impossible. And that's like, depends on what level you're at, what that means. But what do you think about that thesis?
Chris Bolhuis: can't agree anymore. I mean, that is absolutely the case. You know, geology in the field, we've talked about this in prior episodes is flat out difficult.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: It is, it's super hard.
Chris Bolhuis: It is scale is one [00:25:00] thing. That's very, very difficult. you see things in a book, right? And it's right in front of you and, but then you see it in the.
Firsthand in the field and the scale is so much bigger almost always. And that's a hard thing to deal with.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: And the three dimensionality of it, visualizing it in the field is way easier in some ways, but it's also way harder when you're looking at a lava flow, Mike in Hawaii, looking at a lava flow or looking at differences in lava flows and how they map onto the topography of the area. I mean, that's, complicated.
That's hard to [00:25:30] visualize, but students will get there if you give them enough time to do that. So, but that's a really, I find that, Chris, really hard to nail. That difference. And I've, I've been a part of, of groups and done things where it's too deep. it's too confusing. And a lot of students don't get there.
And then there's a bunch that I've been, which are kind of stops that you kind of make, and it's too obvious. So it's boring and students don't really engage with it. You know what I mean? So I find
Chris Bolhuis: yeah, I don't, I have a thought on that. I don't find that to be the [00:26:00] case usually because to me, the wonderment of, do you remember seeing your first anacline or syncline? do you remember seeing your first folded rock in the field? It's, it's kind of simple. It is, it is mind blowing.
You, you see something in the field that you learned about already in a book or from a lecture, to me, that never gets old. I remember the first time I saw half dome. You know, that is the quintessential exfoliation [00:26:30] dome in the Yosemite National Park. I had seen so many pictures of it and read about it so many times.
And then when I see that thing in real life for the first time, it is absolutely mind blowing for me anyway. And I try to convey that to the kids. So when they see that kind of thing, those cross cutting relations, that's pretty easy. But then they look at it and they're like, Oh my gosh. This is so cool.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: question building off of that, and this is getting really in the weeds pedagogically, I think, but what you're describing [00:27:00] is, To me, it seems like here, you've taught them about what a U shaped valley is, and now you just want to show them, like your field trip is showing them what a U shaped valley is, but what skills, because as you said before, like, you do a lot of field stuff compared to,
So what stuff do you expect them to learn in the field and only in the field, what about the field stuff is actually driving their knowledge forward, as opposed to just getting an appreciation for what the real version of the [00:27:30] textbook looks like? do you have a balance?
Because, you know, my field education experience, based At the college level with this like capstone field course. It's a combination of those and it probably is a bit more teaching them field skills actually as opposed to, showing them what things look like actually out in the world.
I don't know. Maybe I'm not explaining that balance right correctly. But does that make sense? The question or?
Chris Bolhuis: it and then we'll see if this is an answer to the question that you just asked.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Fair enough. Yeah.
Chris Bolhuis: Um, in the field, and I think you [00:28:00] know this because you personally, when I think of this answer, I think of you and I, 20 some years ago, hiking down from the Grand Tetons. I, in the field, don't answer questions.
I ask questions. That's my, that's my pedagogical approach is asking questions that lead them down a path. Um, and, and so they feel like this, this power of discovery themselves. All I, all they're doing is answering a series [00:28:30] of questions. My questions are based on things that we've seen. Well, well, what have we seen?
Okay. And then what does that mean? then it's a matter of putting things in order, you know, and I think of you and I hiking down from the grand Tetons and you just, you asked me, well, Mr. Bolhuis, um, that was back when you still called me Mr. Bolhuis,
Dr. Jesse Reimink: When I was a
Chris Bolhuis: which I like, that's right. Um, you know, you were asking me about the formation of the Tetons and all I did, we, walked together, I think for three hours at the end of the My [00:29:00] partner was at the front and you and I just kind of hung back and talked and that's the power of geology in the field is you have to see things at different locations, right?
kind of like what we call walking the contact, and then you have to piece things together. That's right. Absolutely. And then make interpretations based upon what you've seen. it's science done in the best way. It's just incredible.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: I agree. Cause you, the scale of your observations changes a ton. You look at one little rock [00:29:30] on a little tiny outcrop, little micro fold somewhere, or a garnet in a rock that you're walking past, and then you turn around and look at the entire mountain range and you have to try and relate the two, what does that garnet tell us about that mountain range there?
That's a big leap. And that's the beauty of geological science is it's a very kind of storytelling form of science. but that's the thing you, Get in the field, right? And, and I think three dimensional thinking is, is, a skill that you can best learn in the field. It doesn't require it, but it's best learned in the field.
understanding, Hey, I [00:30:00] led this, uh, field camp, uh, when I was a graduate student, University of Alberta, Capstone field camp, third year one. And we drive from Edmonton, which is out in the prairies. We drive into the front ranges. You'd see all the folded sedimentary rocks. And then we worked our way all the way to the interior of British Columbia, where there's high grade.
Metamorphic complexes. So you kind of worked from an outer part of a mountain belt all the way in upgrade more deformation, more folding instead of faulting or folding. So like this big transition and linking little outcrop stops together over the [00:30:30] course of three weeks was really powerful, but it took that constant, like you're describing those constant little questions like.
some student asks about like a chevron fold somewhere. And you'd be like, okay, well, hold on, think about this. You're seeing, how does this fold relate to what we saw yesterday when we were out on the prairies? Oh, they're like, uh, they're the, the folds that look like V's, V's or A's, you know, they're kind of very tight arms, but there's a style, a certain style of deformation that's kind of intermediate between, Migmatites and, you know, low grade faulting. [00:31:00] So, but it's this kind of, I'm getting in the weeds, but what I'm describing is very similar to what you're describing, like this constant pestering, not really answering questions, but getting people to think across those different scales.
and I think that, having a cohesive story is the big thing. Over your trip or over your series of field trips that you're going to be taking, that
Chris Bolhuis: yeah, and I think And this goes also back to your original question in terms of planning the trip in order to do this in the field, as an [00:31:30] educator, you really have to know your stuff. You have to know it so well in order to, to do it in this way.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: I would agree with that. It's okay to like, iterate. I'm sure you do this, Chris. You'd be like, Hey, I know what I'm going to do for 90 percent of this field trip because I've done it before, but this 10%, I'm going to try, you know, or try something new this year. I know what I'm talking about, but I've never done it with the trip this way, but you get to experiment and play with the trip a little bit and see how things go, but not with 50 percent of the trip.
You experiment
Chris Bolhuis: [00:32:00] No
Dr. Jesse Reimink: you know, 10 percent or something like
Chris Bolhuis: Yeah, I, that's right. I, I try to change one thing a year. that's my goal. I'm gonna take the kids maybe to one place that I have not been to yet in my life. that keeps things fresh for me as I continue
Dr. Jesse Reimink: and fresh for students, I would say, too. Like, I remember as a, as a student, I remember co learning with my prof I was doing this field trip, in southwestern Sweden, where we were mapping, and none of us had been there. Two professors, and three undergrad students. [00:32:30] I was one of the three undergrad students, and we were mapping, and I remember that realization, where, like, professor, Ed Hansen, did not know, and was, like, Well, I don't know.
We need to, we need to figure this out together. That was really inspiring for me and that was like really powerful as is no answer to this. We need to learn it together. We need to investigate it together and you're going to go along with an expert who knows how to piece the story together and you're going to do that with them.
That was a really good thing. Great educational sort of tool. So if Chris Bolhuis [00:33:00] is leading the trip and Chris doesn't know, and all the students have a great deal of respect for Chris, that's exciting. You know what I mean? Like that's an adventure that you're all on together, both, living and doing it, but also like thinking about it, the sort of scientific adventure of learning.
Chris Bolhuis: absolutely. And Jesse, that happens every year. I don't know everything. I never pretended to know everything and certain kids will ask questions. And I think also being unafraid to say, I don't know,
Dr. Jesse Reimink: I would agree. Chris, this is [00:33:30] probably a great spot to end on because I agree so much with that point because nothing is more, especially when you're in these beautiful areas or you're outside and you're experiencing this stuff and you're kind of blown away by the geology, nothing is more motivating than when you point out something that the field trip leader Hasn't thought about or looked at or seen, or doesn't have a quick answer to.
that is motivating for a student, I think.
Chris Bolhuis: you, you think so?
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Oh, I think so. I mean, it was for me and, and I [00:34:00] think it is for students too. When students say, Mr. Bolhuis, what's this rock over here? Or like, I noticed this is different from this. And you say, I don't know. I've never noticed that before. I've been on this hike 10 times.
I've never noticed that before. Good point. Let's think about it. I think that like draws everybody in because you're now. co learning in this way. That's my experience. And that comes from, I've gone on field trips at conferences. If you go to scientific conferences in geology ones, there'll often be field trips associated with it, where you have like the world's expert on, the Franciscan [00:34:30] complex metamorphism.
You go along in this field trip and it's a bunch of experts and a bunch of people who are interested and you're just learning with them, but there's the guy or the girl who's published 12 papers on this topic, who's right there, and if you say something, or ask a question that they don't have a good answer to, or, you know, know right away, that gives you a big boost of confidence, at least for me, right, of like, oh wait, I can bring up interesting things that other people don't know the answers to, I can ask good questions, um, I, I don't know, what, what do you think about that?
Chris Bolhuis: I agree It's important, I think, [00:35:00] for young people to know that we don't have all the answers, that science doesn't have all the answers. talking about a person that is leading a trip that knows more about that place than anybody else, probably on the entire planet, and they don't have all the answers.
And I think that that's a, it's an opportunity to have that discussion too. And I think it's an important discussion to have because people People think that, or some people, anyway, there are people think science doesn't know anything, but other people think that science knows all. And we just flat out don't.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: We don't, and I think [00:35:30] there's the flip side, I've been on, and Chris you probably have too, been on field trips where the person leading it, thinks they know everything, and there's nothing more irritating than that, because I think, I don't know, excuse my language, but I think Humans, we have pretty good bullshit detectors.
And and if somebody pretends they have the answers to all the questions people are asking, they're bullshitting a bit, like they just don't. And so I think that nothing is a bigger turnoff than doing that. So just to circle back to your point, your initial point, which is, I agree, I couldn't agree more with [00:36:00] is don't be afraid, especially in the field to say, I don't know, that's a good point.
Let's think about it together. I just think it's. You got to do that. You got to be
Chris Bolhuis: It's powerful. Yeah, absolutely. And I think I've learned more about this because of you and I doing this podcast than. I otherwise would. You and I come across things all the time where we don't have the answers. We get email questions where we don't have immediate answers to the questions that we get from our listeners.
And, uh, sometimes that has made me uncomfortable or I've [00:36:30] asked you, what does research say about this question? And you're like, ah, I don't know, Chris. And I'm like, what do you, wait a minute. What do you mean? You don't know. You know, I was getting irritated with you. Figure it out.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Why don't we know
Chris Bolhuis: No. Yeah. But I, so that's been just this personal evolution with me is becoming more comfortable with that fact too, that, you professors don't have all the answers.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah, well, that's true. But I think it is a tough balance and it is, it's tough to strike that balance because you have to know some things and if you're leading a trip, you do, as you said, you [00:37:00] have to be an expert, you have to know what you're talking about and you have to come across like, you know what you're talking about, but you can't overdo that.
that's a fine line to walk, that I struggled with early on. I would just, when I was, especially when I was TAing field camp, I did, I don't know a lot, which. Pretty soon, students were like, this guy doesn't know anything. he's not helpful. You know what I mean? And, and so they go talk to other people about it.
And, and I, I sort of didn't have, I didn't, wasn't providing any educational value, so you got to know enough to be helpful and to, be an [00:37:30] expert, especially if you're running the trip. and I've seen professors do that poorly too, where they just, they actually don't know.
Chris Bolhuis: hmm. And that's not a good situation. No.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: bad situation. So you got to know enough. So
Chris Bolhuis: Absolutely. here's an example too, Jesse, that I just thought of, uh, one of the things I love to take my students to in the Upper Peninsula, my geology students, is the Pilobosalts. I want to show them, you know, that this, this place was a, it's a failed rift.
And I had, uh, the, uh. Best place. I had a spot for my bus. We [00:38:00] had just a short, maybe 150 yard walk out to these just gorgeous Metabasalts. Yes, but behind Menards and, and it was just gorgeous and they needed to expand their wood yard and so they dynamited my Pilibasalts and so I had to find another outcrop and so I'm on the search again.
You know, and that's, again, you're, trying to dig through all these. It's a rabbit hole you have [00:38:30] to find maybe these field guides or roadside geology or geology underfoot or whatever you're using. you have to like, okay, well, can I get my vehicles in here? Is this a safe place?
And so on. So I did find another place. It's not as good. It'll do, but I'm, I'm. Constantly searching for, those kinds of things. Cause I go up to the upper peninsula all the time and I'm, I'm going to take my geology class up there in a month and a half.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: I think Chris, on that note, you have to enjoy that part that part, that research part can't feel like work. [00:39:00] because you're going to do so much of it to do field trips really well. you got to enjoy it. And I love it. I know you love that part too. Like you're planning a trip to Iceland and I'm sure you're just totally in the weeds and loving it.
Chris Bolhuis: I am. it can be frustrating though, Jesse, because when you look around online about where I should go in Iceland. Everything that pops up or let me say 98 percent of what I come across is very touristy and that's not what I'm interested in. I'm interested in what do I [00:39:30] absolutely need to see geologically that I can, document and take, pictures and, and make me as an educator better.
You know what I mean? And that's, so it can be a frustrating thing when planning a trip from a geologic perspective,
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Definitely. I agree completely with that. Yep.
Chris Bolhuis: way of looking
Dr. Jesse Reimink: I mean, Chris, you know, we've told this story before, but when we were going to the Black Hills to do our little rock collecting trip back in the day, first place we went was the South Dakota School of Mines Museum, because that's, there's information there.
There's [00:40:00] people who know stuff there, you gotta plug into that local knowledge because the local knowledge, they know if such and such quarry owner is open and interested to, people walking up or. Student classes, and the other quarry owner isn't, and they don't want anybody talking to them, and you can't get a hold of them.
So these people with local knowledge, or these communities, or networks of people, you gotta plug into that. That's a, I mean, invaluable, um, and they're all over, I mean, every little, In my experience, like, every little town or community or [00:40:30] area of a state has a mineralogical club with a bunch of people who know a bunch about the area or a geological society or something like that.
people exist, you just gotta find them and plug in, so.
Chris Bolhuis: And sometimes, you know, like if it's just you and I out there looking for something, a case of beer goes a long way, you know,
Dr. Jesse Reimink: that's exactly right. Definitely. Absolutely.
Chris Bolhuis: buying around at a bar,
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah.
Chris Bolhuis: a lot of information. I'll tell you. Yeah. Hey, Jesse. Do you remember, uh, looking around for two days for [00:41:00] Tufa?
in the Black Hills,
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yes. Yes.
Chris Bolhuis: So I just gave away a chunk of Tufa to one of my students. Um, he is, I know, he is, it made me feel so good to give it to him because this kid is all in. He loves rocks and minerals and he goes to the Tucson Mineral Show every year with his dad. Yeah. And so anyway, he came up to me and he said, Mr.
Bolhuis, I want to make an offer on some of your box work. I had it in my lab, locked away in [00:41:30] the, in the rock cases with glass cases, you know, and anyway, so I went back there and I'm like, I, you know, I have a piece of this. So went and got him a piece of it, of the boxwork and he hauls out his wallet.
I'm like, Oh no, no, you're, you're taking this with you. I want you to have this. and then I walk away and I go back and I find this like brick sized chunk of two foot. It's a nice piece. That stuff was great. You know, and I gave that to him as well just because the kid loves it.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Yeah, Be excited. That's a good, that's a good lesson, I think. Be excited, be interested, be [00:42:00] gracious, that'll go a long way. Buy around at the bar and you'll get hundreds of dollars worth of information back out of that, right? Save yourself time.
I mean that so that that this sounds like another episode Chris a different episode how to plan a rock collecting trip Which we actually have gotten an email or two about this type of thing from listeners So maybe we'll save that for another episode But the highlight would be buy around at the bar from from people, you know, or at least offer Yeah, at least offer.
Hey, that's a wrap for this episode. there are two [00:42:30] ways to support us and we really appreciate it. If you do that, you can go to our website, planetgeocache. com. There you can click on the support us link and, uh, help us keep the show running.
Otherwise you can head over to the camp geo app. It's the first link in your show notes. Click on that. We have tons of free content on there. Basically introduction to geology course that Chris and I both teach at the college level. is there with audio discussions and images. You can also purchase some of our audio books on the geology of Yellowstone, the geology of the Grand Canyon, and Earth's climate.
So what you can, so head to those two [00:43:00] places to support us. You can send us an email at planetgeocast. gmail. com and ask us any questions you want.
Chris Bolhuis: Cheers.
Dr. Jesse Reimink: Peace.
